Zanele Mutepfa-Rhone Episode Transcript

 Monte: [00:00:02] All right, our guest today is Zanele Moutet, foreign, a culture and diversity strategist, speaker, activist, philanthropist and the founder of Brand Zanele and the Here to State Initiative when it comes to her contributions to corporate inclusion, diversity and brand marketing, that is only the tip of the iceberg. Zanele, thanks so much for joining us today. [00:00:20][17.9]

Zanele: [00:00:21] Thank you for having me. [00:00:22][0.8]

Monte: [00:00:22] Our pleasure. Our pleasure. We wanted to kick things off today by letting our listeners know and learn just a little bit more about you. Your your story from immigrating from Zimbabwe to working with Anderson Cooper, Sesame Street and Nike, Expensify also just to name a few. And I'll let the people know what you're all about. [00:00:38][15.8]

Zanele: [00:00:40] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Sometimes I listen to the introduction, I'm like, Chiche, that sounds really busy, but every single piece that you mentioned is a part of my life story. And I think for somebody like me, who is a Zimbabwean immigrant who really came to the United States with nothing to then look back and think, wow, I have worked really hard on a lot and my community has brought me through so much. And it's definitely something to pinch myself on, but also something that I can be proud of. [00:01:12][32.5]

Monte: [00:01:13] Fantastic. Fantastic. So as I mentioned, you've worked with Expensify in the past. A lot of great work you've done with our company. I wanted to hand it off to David and you can kind of talk about the work you guys have done, where we started and where we are now. [00:01:25][11.6]

David: [00:01:27] Yeah. So we've been working together for how long now? It's been like two years. A year. [00:01:32][5.0]

Zanele: [00:01:33] Yes. We're going into our third year year. Gosh, yeah. We started majority of twenty nineteen and then all of twenty twenty and then we're going to twenty twenty one together. So it's very exciting. [00:01:46][13.3]

David: [00:01:47] Yeah. I think it's a, it's been a really exciting journey for me personally and I've learned a tremendous amount from a from our conversations and just the engagement that we've had so far. But I go back to sort of the start. I'd love to hear kind of like your thoughts, like in general, when a company like Expensify reaches out to you, why are they doing it and what are they looking to get from you? [00:02:06][19.4]

Zanele: [00:02:07] Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, David? [00:02:09][1.9]

Zanele: [00:02:10] I think really, me coming out of corporate America and choosing to go into consulting, which I usually like being a collaborator or strategist, I actually think when someone calls themselves a consultant, there's this idea or this historical notion that they come in a company and tell you what to do. And you just supposed to take it was for me, I more so think about myself as a strategist. I love to collaborate with people. I recognize that my journey, my lived experiences and expertize that I've learned along the way are definitely valuable. But they can only make an impact if the company on the other side is also willing to put out what they've learned right or what they have on the table in order for us to create a really effective diversity strategy. And so when I decided to even come into building my own business, one of the main reasons why I did that was because I knew if a company is coming to me, they going out of their way to get a consultant or a strategist or outside opinion, there's a piece of them that really wants to make a difference. Right. That really wants to get it right. And a lot of times and I have a lot of girlfriends, a lot of mentors of mine that are chief diversity officers, the diversity managers, and, you know, nine times out of ten, what I hear from them is now they only got this job to check a box or they only created headcount for this role to use me as a puppet. Right. Or to just allow their employees to not complain or to not really give the company a hard time. And so majority of the time, the clients that do go out of their way to come to me, they want to reshape and shift their culture. Something has either happened or in society. There's maybe, you know, as we saw this summer, their social injustices that are in place and they're in a place that they're thinking, how do we react to this? How do we ensure that we allow our company and our teens to know that they belong here, regardless of the color of their skin, regardless of their gender or where they're from or who they love. But then also, how do they not just talk about it, but then how do they actually embedded in the DNA of their company? And so whether it's companies that have are starting from scratch, they've never done this before or companies that have teams of probably 15 to 20 to 30 people, but they recognize there's something in the way that I work with that I collaborate with my clients that they're missing in their organization. They're the types of companies that will come to me and ask for help. [00:04:43][152.8]

David: [00:04:43] Yeah, that makes sense. [00:04:44][0.7]

Zanele: [00:04:44] And I think that. I've been incredibly hesitant for contractors of all stripes across the board, and I think, like our business model is so weird, a company is strange, I found there's very few out-of-the-box solutions that can be rapid and effectively to a company like Expensify. And so I'll admit, when we started talking initially, like I was, I was pretty hesitant because, I mean, I think I've had a lot of bad experience with the contractors, exactly as you mentioned, like there's this reputation, like kind of coming in saying, like, this is how it is. And exactly as you mentioned, it feels like there's a tremendous industry for a checkbox contractor to come in and basically do a surface level sort of rebranding, almost like internal branding, just to kind of solve the guilt factor of an employee base or whatever that is. And I knew from the start, it's like I didn't want something that was just this very simple sort of surface level checkbox approach towards diversity and inclusion. In this words, I don't I still struggle with them, but I certainly didn't know them then. And and so I think I had a lot of fears about I didn't know what I wanted, but I knew what I didn't want. And that was a kind of a scary thing for me going into this. And so I'd be curious, like, uh, like when you think back to the initial times, like, what were your thoughts about, like, you know, how expensive I was reaching out to me, you probably had a sense that I was pretty hesitant and I'd be curious. But kind of like your read of the situation. [00:06:15][91.3]

Zanele: [00:06:17] Yes. And that the answer to that is actually twofold. And the first one that came to mind is absolutely I felt a resistance. I was like, OK, this guy does it's not that it's not personal. It's not that he doesn't want me here. But I can tell he's skeptical about outside opinions or consultants coming in and trying to tell the company what to do. But again, because of the way that I work, I thought to myself, that's OK. My work will speak for itself and even more importantly, our work will speak for itself. And so while you were still in that space, I thought, OK, let me work around with these incredible people, by the way, that are part of Expensify that are self starters. They're super passionate about the work that they do. You did have a lot of people who were invested in this. Right, that wanted to be a part of the change. And so what I committed to was, how about I partner with them and we continue to do this work and we just show him that this is possible and show him that. And I hate to speak of myself this way because I want to sound like I'm boasting, but to prove that I'm not a typical consultant, that I genuinely do care about this organization. And I genuinely believe immersive collaboration is the only way that we can get anything done. A lot of the companies that bring in outside consultants kind of do an internal cleanup like what you're talking about. It's temporary. And as you've probably heard me in a lot of our calls, I'm always asking, what is the long game here? How do we create sustainable programing? How do we create, you know, make a shift in the DNA of our company and not just a one time activation? And a lot of times, if you have a consultant that just comes in and tells you what to do is just going to be surface level. And guess what? You're going to have the same issue the next year and the year after that. And so I knew you were resistant, but I thought it was an incredible opportunity that was filled with so many people who were open to the idea and who just wanted to get shit done. And I saw that in them and just said, OK, let's get this work done. And then hopefully he will come along the way as he sees things starting to progress. So that was my my take on it. And then what's really unique here is that you all didn't really come to me. I came to you and I will never forget this. I have spent, I think, maybe eight months in my new business. I have a couple of clients like Snapchat and Nike that were under my belt. And while I had those retainers, I started thinking about the whole reason why I left corporate America to begin with was, well, one, it didn't want to just be under a corporate structure that was telling me what to say and do to sell other people dreams. That was the first thing and let it that be my job. But the second thing was that I wanted to carve out more time to use my skills and talents to get back to my community, to create spaces and rooms and platforms for diverse women who have different journeys for me and similar journeys for me to actually amplify their voices, for people to know that they exist, to know their work. And so because of that, I was like, OK, I need to focus more on finding partnerships or organizations that believe in this idea that women not only deserve to be celebrated, but as we can see in the. And promotions and having the US still have about 80, 90 percent of CEOs being men, that there is a lot of room for us to create space for more women to be acknowledged. And so this idea of here to stay came to life and here to stay is the initiative that Monty talked about that I created that celebrates women that built their own seats at the table and are here to stay to build seats for all. And what I wanted to do was create an experiential series that celebrates diverse women, expose their incredible stories, and allowed the community to see that the brands, the products and services that we use every day and that are in our homes are really created and ran by incredible women. But yet nobody knows their names. And so I wanted to do that in Portland and I found it to be important. And so I will never forget I would split my day between 7:00 a.m. and one, I would focus on my consulting and between 1:00 p.m. and four, I would write down all of the different companies that I thought would make incredible partners for here to stay. Now around up, I think it was 11 a.m. I started looking at tech companies that are in Portland that would be good for consulting. So I started writing that Excel spreadsheet full of all of those names, and I ran into Expensify for San Francisco. And I thought, yes, I love this. Like, I want to be able to travel. I travel quite a bit of my last job. I started learning all of these incredible things about how you all travel a couple of times a year as a whole company, the flat organization like it was just doing so many cool things that I loved. And I wrote all of them down. I was like, OK, I'm going to pitch to them to consult. And then around two o'clock now I'm working on the here to say partnerships. I thought to myself, I was like, oh, you know, Expensify on that list. But I thought I rather important one as well. Let me look up where they are and I look you up on Google Maps and my God, that building in Portland downtown, I was just flabbergasted. And I remember the vision that I had for here to say I was ready to do it in my living room. I was happy to just create space in my living room for women to share and to collaborate and to create innovative ideas. But when I saw the bank, I thought, oh, my gosh, how cool would it be to have this wonderful space filled with diverse women from all walks of life and create a platform for them to share their stories? How magnificent would that be? And I yelled to my husband and he comes to the room and he says, What? And I said, OK, so hear me out. Because he knows all about you need to get some money. You need some consultants. OK, money needs to come in this house. I'm tired. OK, so I was like, hear me out. He's like, what is that? And I said, So there's a company or my consulting us, they would be great. [00:12:43][386.4]

Zanele: [00:12:44] I think there's an awesome opportunity for me to come in and consult. But look at their venue. Wouldn't this be so awesome for our community to just have an amazing time there and feel so special and, you know, you're doing it again? And I was like, what? He's like, you're putting other people before you. And I'm like, no, I'm like, listen, I really want you to consider this. And you said to me, OK, what is your heart telling you? And I said, I want here to stay in this building. He's like, OK, then do that. So I just remember going on LinkedIn, doing a bunch of research, writing a lot of the team members that we have it. Expensify and Alex and Nikki were the first ones to respond. And Nikki just took it over and said, listen, I believe in this and I believe in you and I believe in these communities and we're going to make this happen. And I felt so great after that. And I will never forget after our first meeting, my husband said, now, do you think you just lost out on an opportunity to consult for a drug company? And I said, no, I think I did the right thing at the right time. And a month later, you all asked me if I would consult. So that that's really the story of how we got together. And it just reminds me every day how important it is to put service to others first and everything else will fall in place. [00:14:03][79.5]

David: [00:14:04] Yeah, I agree. I totally agree with that. So I'm looking forward to when it's over and we can resume this seminar. I think that here just a sort of lecture series has been fantastic. I guess more of a panel series has been incredible. And so I am looking forward to get that going again. So maybe maybe for the benefit of listeners and for me as well. How would you define like diversity, inclusiveness, equity and justice? And how are those different and how do they relate? [00:14:34][30.4]

Zanele: [00:14:36] Yeah, absolutely. This is actually what I it's probably the first thing that I go over when I have new clients, no matter what, doing a workshop together or I. [00:14:46][10.3]

Zanele: [00:14:46] Creating a long partnership for diversity for me is both visible and invisible, diversity for what we know could be racial diversity, the color of our skin, gender, diversity, nationality as well. But it also has invisible diversity of socio economic backgrounds. Right. Where do people go to school? Did you take out loans for school or did your family help you? Did you go to an Ivy League school? Did you go to community college? All of those are types of diversity that we bring into the room, one that I have, the two that I have really been working with my clients on right now that easily gets forgotten sometimes is parenthood. Right? And parenthood will go into a little bit of equity as well. But parenthood is one of those things that people have such a hard time. And I would say companies easily forget and I'm always like that is one that we should really be focused on because it impacts the way people work. It impacts whether people want to come work for you or not. And so definitely consider that as well. And then people with disabilities. Right. Because those are also seen and unseen. So that's diversity is just really having different people with different backgrounds, regardless of the color of their skin or their gender, invisible, invisible differences. And then equity is really important to me because I think a lot of people get it confused with equality. To say equality is to say we're all starting at an equal baseline. We all have equal access to opportunities. We all have equal access to job postings, et cetera. But equity is to say, OK, we're going to look beyond that and say for every individual, what are the unique circumstances and experiences that they currently have and have had historically that prohibit them or cost a barrier to them getting to that equal playing field that we're talking about. [00:16:43][116.8]

Zanele: [00:16:44] And this one is interesting to me because I've noticed and we've talked about it greatly, even in our own conversations and our meetings, I'm hearing so many different definitions from companies across the board. And once they actually define what equity is, different people have different priorities that they have to say, OK, when it comes to equity, we really want to focus on, OK, we want to see like what were the disparities historically, whether it's in the last hundred years, the last 200 years, how can we as a company make that right? And then we have other companies, as I mentioned, with parenthood that say, listen, we have got to fix our benefits when it comes to paternity leave and we have got to really focus on how do we create an atmosphere that allows openness and flexibility to people who have children. How can we do that? So that's equity. It's really just the fundamental understanding and effort to go out of your way to address people's unique experiences and circumstances that they have faced in their life. [00:17:44][59.7]

Zanele: [00:17:44] And then we have inclusion, which is the most important one of all. And I have this thought leader mentor that I look up to. [00:17:53][8.8]

Zanele: [00:17:54] Her name is Vernon Myers. She is the chief diversity officer at Netflix. And she was the one who coined the term I don't know if you've heard of it. Diversity is who was invited to the party, but inclusion is who asked who is asked to dance. And it's just such a simple term. [00:18:10][16.7]

Zanele: [00:18:11] And I always crack up with my clients that I do workshops. I'm like, I don't know about you, but honey, I remember in junior high I'll spend all day getting my hair done and getting getting all these pretty clothes and dresses and then I'll show up to the dance and nobody wants to dance with me. That did not feel good. OK, well imagine that feeling and it could be a dance. Could be prom whether you were asked to prom or not or you get there, nobody speaks to you. Those that level of anxiety and feeling of isolation and not feeling like you're part. It follows this all the way through adulthood. It follows us in the boardroom. When people are making decisions, they follow all of us in slack meetings, when people are throwing out ideas or speaking about the things that they want to do and nobody responds back to them or no one addresses that the idea was good enough, we should look into it. [00:18:56][45.0]

Zanele: [00:18:56] That feeling that we got in middle school and high school of being left out of the dance is the same feeling we get now when we don't involve all voices that are in the room. And I always speak to these three parts because I genuinely believe none of them can live without the other. If you have diversity, you can be a company that goes out there and now you have fifty percent women, you have nationalities and all racial diversity. You are scoring really high there, but then your turnover rate is really high. Why? Because there's lack of inclusion. You have women and people of color consistently leaving your company and complaining that their ideas were never implemented, that they were passed up to promotions, whether it's pay, promotion or level. They feel as if people talk over them or don't. We know that they exist, those are the reasons why people usually leave companies, and that is the lack of inclusion. But then also when I go in this other side, you can have inclusion and have a lack of diversity. I'll never forget one of your teammates and was super proud of her. And I don't know if she'd want me to blast her, but she sat down with me and she said, I love the work that we're doing with you. And I said, Yeah, me too. And she goes, I look around and I hear a lot of people say that we do inclusion well, that everybody is invited. I love the policy that you all have, that you can choose whatever concert you want to go to or social engagement. As long as you invite everyone to come expensive, I will cover it. She goes, we have some of the best programs or perks that allow us to be inclusive. We travel together, she goes. But I know this work that we're doing to increase the diversity in our company is going to shake up the way we define inclusion. And I said absolutely, because the more people you bring in from different communities, from different countries that were raised different ways, the more you're going to have to really break down. What does inclusion mean to the company, by the way, of how inclusion means to those diverse individuals? If everyone went to Harvard, you're going to probably define inclusion the same way. If everyone is from Portland, you're probably going to define inclusion the same way. But if you have somebody from the Bronx, honey, and you got somebody from Chicago or from Miami and they're not joining your company and culturally, they were raised differently, inclusion is going to look way different than it did three years ago when you didn't have the diversity. And so those are the three. You can't have one without the other. And then I know you mentioned justice as well. Right. And for me, justice for it, especially if we're talking on a company level, it's really our ability to look at something that unfair and say, how do we recommend that? And we've talked about it, especially in our meetings. David, reparations, right. To say, OK, here is an area where it is so evident that this particular community was treated differently and missed out on opportunities or, you know, we've talked about prison system before that they were not treated fairly. And so we're going to do what we need to do to ensure we do our part to make that better, to pay that for to recommend that. So that's what I would say justice is to say these are the areas that were done wrong and particularly for this community. And here's our way of how we pay it forward to say we're going to try to make it right. [00:22:26][209.7]

David: [00:22:27] Yeah, I think the I think that's that's super helpful to break down those kind of different terms. And that's what. I think as a CEO, I've been very process oriented and so I can basically break down into a process that can be followed, that can be documented like that, I rally around and I think that these terms for me from the start have always been very hard to grapple with, very hard to create a process around. And so I'd say I would be curious. I, I think my definition needs to be slightly different. I'd be curious to hear kind of your reaction to that, OK, because I would say from my perspective, diversity is sort of a measure of success. Basically, if you do a bunch of other things right, you end up as a diverse place. But diversity can't be mandated by itself because you can't force people to join. You can only welcome them and include them and so forth. So diversity in my mind is the desired outcome, but it's not actually a process itself. There's no diversity process because diversity is a decision that other people make before they even join. [00:23:24][57.1]

David: [00:23:26] First thoughts so far. [00:23:27][1.2]

Zanele: [00:23:28] Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't disagree, but I would say yes and right. Yes. [00:23:36][8.1]

Zanele: [00:23:37] And because you have to set forth and I think we talked about this in the beginning of our partnership, a lot of us that were working on hiring is to say, like, we're not going to put a quota out there to say by twenty, twenty four we need to have sixty six percent racial diversity in our company, but rather we need to diversify the processes of which we go out and get diverse candidates into our company. So, for instance, right now, for a company that says we're just going to post on our own dotcom, we're going to post on LinkedIn and Glassdoor, and that's it. Majority of the time because of how the system is structured and created, you're going to get the same results. You're going to get the same people that happen to have the opportunity to hop on LinkedIn or that happened to know very well that Glassdoor, even if, dare I say that, knows that your company exists. So to even assume that, like, who are the consumers that you have, how would they know that your company exists? And so therefore, these consumers now turn into talent like those, just like the basic ways that people usually kills jobs. But to diversify your processes is to say that there are gaps in going on LinkedIn. There are gaps in assuming that Expensify we are we are Expensify has diverse people coming to it. Instead, what we're going to do is go out of our way and find organizations, institutions and platforms that serve diverse communities who can guarantee diverse communities, trust them. And I always say this, that trust is legit. One of the single most important thing that you can do to attract diverse talent. And the only way that you can gain or not only one of many ways that you can gain trust from diverse talent is familiarity. [00:25:20][102.8]

Zanele: [00:25:21] They have to see you and know you within their own community for them to even think, OK, I'm going to go on Expensify website and apply for a job. And so I heavily believe that diversity is within the process is to ensure that you are examining the processes that you have in place and seeing what the gaps are and then figuring out ways to fill them. [00:25:41][20.0]

David: [00:25:42] OK, so I think we might be saying similar things, but slightly differently. And I would say that I absolutely agree there is a process that can achieve diversity. And I would think that that process includes components of inclusiveness as well as equity. And I think that in my mind, inclusiveness is. I guess it's such hard terms, like that's why I think this is such a great conversation, like I still struck. We've been talking about this for years and I struggled to articulate these concepts in a way that can be implemented as like a process because like if I can't, like, on the spot have a coherent description of it, it's hard to expect an entire team to as well. But in my mind, I would say like inclusiveness is, as you say, who you invite to dance, having processes in place that ensure everyone has equal opportunity and is provided with support and encouragement to actually pursue that opportunity as well. But I think inclusiveness is different than sort of equity, which is basically saying if inclusiveness is about trying to eliminate all the problems and biases inside of our walls, I think equity is about trying to compensate for those biases that exist outside of our walls. And like inclusiveness is the much easier one because it's it's easier to rally people behind. It's like, hey, we should be super fair to everyone. Transparent and welcoming. Everybody is the one I think is really hard because it's basically saying, hey, we should take responsibility for problems that we didn't actually create. But at the same time, by acknowledging the systemic biases that sort of like helped us get where we are, it's like, yeah, we didn't create those problems, perhaps, but we certainly benefited from those problems. And so that's that's a hard conversation to have. [00:27:23][100.5]

Zanele: [00:27:23] Yeah, I think equity, it really allows to open the door on really radical opinions and movements to actually create a difference. Right. Because what happens is when people are proposing, let's say, maternity leave and saying if you become a mother, a father, you get a year off. Germany does this, you get a year off. We got you covered. We'll pay for it. Right. What that does is that any of those unique experiences always have somebody on the other side who doesn't have access to them. [00:27:55][31.9]

Zanele: [00:27:56] And so when you put yourself in that position, you're creating this atmosphere where people, if they don't understand and or stand by the values that the company is taking on and choosing to champion, you're going to have people that are constantly challenging whether or not those accommodations. Right. Or those compensations are fair. And so that's when it gets really complicated for a lot of companies where I think we've talked about this together, where I have clients that say so. Now we've noticed because the red redlining, black communities and families have a really hard time buying homes. Right. They get denied loans a lot faster. Their rates are a lot higher. And so we want for people to see, like if they go on our website, they know, like, oh, my gosh, I have to move from Chicago to Portland, not only my moving from my home, from my home city, that I now have to go into a predominantly white town or white city. And I have to face the entire process again of trying to get a home. Right. And when they go on our website, NALGO, they'll say, OK, I'm going to move to Portland. And I notice that our company is going to help with home down payment assistance or they recognize for any black families or black employees that we're going to pay. You pay twenty five percent of your of your down payment or twenty five percent of your entire house. Those types of things. [00:29:18][81.8]

Zanele: [00:29:19] While it makes sense, while the company is saying that we're going to basically pay for the mistakes we didn't make, you're putting yourself in a position where any employee can really challenge that if they don't see the vision or the value that you are trying to afford. [00:29:34][15.2]

David: [00:29:35] Yeah, and for the benefit of listeners, these are all ideas. We haven't actually done all of these yet. [00:29:39][4.5]

Zanele: [00:29:39] So discussion of this and this is the client. [00:29:43][3.3]

Zanele: [00:29:43] I have a client who did do this, but I just shared it with the team. It wasn't Expensify, but a different client of mine is working on that because that's the area they've chosen. And I had mentioned before someone focusing on Parenthoods. Some are focusing on gender. Right. And creating more opportunities, especially when it comes to education. Right. And so the home downpayment assistance one was the one that I would say is probably having the most I would say people challenging it at this time, but it it's still implemented well. [00:30:15][32.0]

David: [00:30:15] Oh, that's interesting. When you say the most people challenging mean employees of the company or outside or what do you mean by that? [00:30:21][5.2]

Zanele: [00:30:21] Employees in the company. But the reason that we discuss to say, well, if they're getting that, what about me? And that is the mentality that we're getting a lot right. And I don't know about you, but I saw that a lot this summer where, you know, any drive of social change and and or equity requires a lot of, I would say, internal work, understanding and education for people to actually then say, yes, I am an outlier to that, or yes, I'm going to champion that along with you, because for a lot of people and specifically white males. Right. Who have benefited from the privilege that. We've had historically the idea of social justice or the idea of equity and inclusion and all of that really allows you to think like, oh my gosh, I am now in fear that in order for me to champion this, there's a possibility that means that I lose that privilege. There's a possibility that I end up not getting the benefits anymore. One of the theories that I have said, and I think I put this on my Instagram, is that there is a fear that in order for you to invite people to the table, that you have to leave the room. And that's not the case at all. I just want you to fuck over. [00:31:38][76.8]

David: [00:31:41] Yeah, I think that if you're accustomed to privilege, like equality can feel like discrimination. [00:31:46][5.0]

Zanele: [00:31:47] Yes, absolutely. It now feels like you're being discriminated against for the privileges that you've had all along when really it just means, no, just help me make space for me and help me make space for my next generation and the generation after that. And if we are to become accustomed to that practice, we will all still win, you know? And so I, I find that a lot of the times when I see clients that challenge some of these equity approaches, a lot of the times it's because they fear that. What about me? What does that mean about people like me or people who look like me? And I try to remind them that, listen, it's just fear. And a lot of the fear is from the unknown. So let's educate each other on exactly what this looks like. And you will come to learn that you're not going to miss anything at all. In fact, you're going to become better and you're going to get better business and you're going to get better teams and you're going to get more profit. And in fact, you're going to get more talent that's attracted to you as an organization that wants to be a part of your company and will help your company become successful. [00:32:52][65.6]

David: [00:32:54] So you've talked about kind of the pushback from those who have experienced privilege, basically resisting equity. But one thing I've seen and I think the more challenging one I've had to deal with is like I've talked to a lot of people with about policies designed to help them. They're like, no, thank you. I just don't want that. It's like I don't want to be singled out in this way. And I would prefer I just would prefer not to get the benefit of this program that you're making. I recognize you're trying to do it for me, but as the person receiving it, I actually just don't want it. And how do you recommend dealing with that? [00:33:26][31.8]

Zanele: [00:33:27] Yeah, I've heard this a couple of times, too, and it's not uncommon because really and truly, it's what people experience once those policies are implemented. You know what they experienced once they become a part of the company and they find out, oh, wait, you know, I'm here because of some initiative that was put together, would you have been would you have been interested in me if this initiative was not put together? And to be honest with you, David. I feel as if that's always going to be around, so long as people say this is none of my business. [00:34:02][35.2]

David: [00:34:03] And what I mean by that is this. When these policies are implemented, we all have a responsibility to rally around it, around them and say, how do we make sure these people are welcomed, that this is something that's a benefit to all of us and not a single them out on their own. [00:34:19][16.0]

Zanele: [00:34:20] People don't come to these ideas just because they read about it and thought, oh, yeah, I'm going to get singled out on that. I don't want to be a part of it. People experience microaggression, which is for listeners who don't know what microaggression are their everyday slights or insults that are sometimes covered as jokes or things like, oh, my gosh, you're so smart. I would have thought you graduated from Harvard or Zanele. You speak so well. Was English your first language or. Oh, my gosh, your hair is so long as those extensions like they were just insults that allow somebody to uncover the fact that they are other or remind them that they are others. So as far as microaggression is, though, so when people experience constant micro aggressions in their lifetime, whether it's, you know, the young black man who did get into Harvard, he happens to be tall. [00:35:13][53.2]

Zanele: [00:35:13] And so people are asking if he's a part of the team, the basketball team, you know, or if it is an executive that was brought in to take over as the CEO. And people wonder, was it out of the executive search that they did because the former CEO said a racial slur, you know, like all of these things that happen, that people then decide to be a part of a company and then how everybody reacts around them, those are the reasons why people are afraid of any of these policies or programs. And so it's our responsibility that if we do implement programs, if we do implement new policies, that the people on the inside and I think I've talked to you about this before, David, that the culture on the inside is welcoming of those new policies and programs, that there are protocols put in place for people who would be against them or treat people differently. And so I think that's how people get there, because to be honest with you, if some of these policies were implemented and no one blinked and I everybody said, all right, let's get this done, we want a new future. We want to build a better legacy, let's get to it. I don't think anyone would be as resistant and certainly not people of color and women as well. [00:36:26][72.9]

David: [00:36:27] That's kind of interesting. It combines like the inclusiveness and equity component. So it's like if we have it's like, hey, there's a program that we'd like to put in place to provide equity for people of disadvantaged backgrounds. But before we can do that, we need to create an inclusive environment that's going to make people feel comfortable to take advantage of that benefit as well. [00:36:44][17.3]

Zanele: [00:36:46] Absolutely. Because it then changes the experience for them. Right. And then that's what helps us, you know, lower turnover rates, increase retention rates, make sure people feel as if that they could not only see themselves in the company, but they can see themselves growing in the company because the people around them are welcoming them and they're happy to have them. And they're also pointing out their talents and skills. And I think one thing, David, that I've noticed is that as companies increase the diversity in their company, the people that have been brought in have all the things that make them different, pointed it out right. So you have someone who has an accent. Somehow, their accent is always brought up. You know, you have a black woman who changes her hair every week. Someone mentioned something about her hair every week, you know, because the culture has normalized all of these differences that are being brought into the company as something that that's just how the world is. [00:37:41][55.6]

Zanele: [00:37:42] The world is beautiful. It's made up of people that are different from them. And so what happens is that when people are kind of, you know, I call it whiplash, culture was like, oh, well, we're changing so quickly. And we didn't take the time to really learn and educate ourselves. We have now created a culture where people can come in and not really feel like they're part of it. [00:38:02][20.0]

David: [00:38:03] That's interesting why you're saying that. It reminds me of the early days when we first got her our second office and how we started in San Francisco and everyone in San Francisco. And then we open it up an office and the Ironwood, Michigan and the upper Michigan. And one of the immediate challenges was like there was three time zones off. And and so it was just a big challenge actually working with this group just because there was a time zone gap that it didn't have the same like the remote. And this was years ago. And so, like the video conferencing, you know, we still struggle with what is even worse than like, you know, we didn't have any habits and so forth. And I think that what you're saying about there's a huge penalty to be basically in a satellite office because there were so few people in that office and they had to work so hard to become part of the main company because they were on the outside. Yeah. [00:38:56][53.2]

David: [00:38:56] Whereas now, yeah, like everyone works from home. I have no idea where half my employees even live in that moved around a whole bunch. [00:39:03][6.7]

David: [00:39:05] And and now we have basically all of our processes, our time zone independence. It's like basically we don't have a lot of calls. And so do you do a call slack meeting where it's basically a bunch of questions in Slack where you can thread things up, leave the conversation open for 24 hours so everyone can participate. And it's taken years to build in kind of those habits for how to be timezone inclusive, which is very different than kind of a simplified series of problems to like in a racially inclusive or, you know, these invisible sort of diversity or Sporkin as well. So, yeah, I think that that's that's a really great point, that a lot of this a lot of this is just about building habits and habits is just repetition. But it's always unfortunate because it's those you can't build those habits until there's the first generation of people who are experienced in the world that hasn't yet built up those habits. And so, again, it's hard to kind of bridge the gap between those two. [00:40:01][56.6]

Zanele: [00:40:03] Well, you know what? I'm going to push back on the the fact that people live everywhere now, which I would say is probably one of the things that I admire the most. [00:40:11][8.3]

Zanele: [00:40:11] And we all made that decision as you were making it. Maybe you did have inclusion in mind or diversity in mind. But, you know, studies have shown that the more companies that are going remote and allowing people to live and work from wherever they want, the more diversity that they're going to produce as far as talent attraction, because one of the biggest barriers for diverse talent to move into specifically in companies and technology is that people, for the most part, if you're coming from Atlanta, you do not want to move to San Francisco. You do not want to move to Mountain View. You do not want to move to where people consider Silicon Valley. And so the fact that you all have this remote work, live and work from anywhere, you're legit, breaking down barriers of entry into your company because you're allowing people to still work within their communities, stay within, you know, parameters for their families to take care of their families and still earn a living working for a company like Expensify. So that has always been one of my favorite things and, you know, favorite perks that you all have. And I'm excited to see in the next two years as people are now seeing how productive they are working from home or working remote, that they would probably challenge themselves to say, OK, I want to do this and I can really work from anywhere. I'm going to go for a company that I might otherwise wouldn't have in the past. So I'm excited about that. [00:41:38][86.2]

Zanele: [00:41:39] And then, you know, I think what's really interesting as well as far as your say, in order for us to actually see a change or you talking about repetition rate being exposed to diverse cultures in order for us to get used to diverse cultures. One thing that I think we've done and, you know, the dog opening it came and interrupted that. But when we have been exploring community outreach possibilities and partnerships. Right. So, for example, we talked about here here to say earlier, I remember that when we first started our partnership, it was clear to me through you, it's clear to me through Nikki that you really wanted that bank to be a community hub. You wanted that bank to be a place where everyone in the community could feel welcomed, that you would co-host different experiences there and people would walk in and feel like, oh, I love this place. Like I could see myself working here, right where I could see myself working from here. And so that aspect or that I would say value that you all have and commitment to the community is a way for you to continue to familiarize yourself with diverse cultures. Right. And then we'll talk about partnerships. I know that we've traveled quite a bit and we've gone to historically black colleges and universities. We've gone to women who call conferences and and Alphatech and things like that. I think I would say partnerships of that nature that are consistently exposing our teams to diverse communities and diverse cultures give us the opportunity to be more familiar with that. Right. And then to say, like, OK, we might not have the diversity that we're looking for here, but, you know, 50 percent of our employees go out in the community and work within the community. They go to conferences. They don't just sponsor conferences by putting a logo on them, but they actually do partnerships that matter. Right. Immerse themselves into the work that that organization is trying to do. So giving employees the opportunity to be more exposed to different cultures, even through partnerships and even through community outreach and organizations, gives us the opportunity to kind of embed that that inclusion in that welcoming of diverse cultures in our company. [00:43:55][136.0]

David: [00:43:56] Yeah, I think that so internal we talk and we've got the two rules, it's like no one gets it done. Rule number two is just don't fuck it up for everyone else. And I think that rule number two, the more we've talked about sort of the part of our engagement, I think we've one reason why inclusiveness is come very naturally to the people of Expensify is because that's that's that's really the heart of rule number two is let's create an environment which is maximally inclusive of the most diverse range of people. And so I think that we feel very good about sort of the inclusiveness. Once you get into the walls of Expensify, I think the place we need to really work is how do we get more diverse people into those walls? And additionally, how can we take a greater interest in the justice or rather the injustices that are happening outside those walls and make it our mission to help those as well. So these are all great topics. I'm sure we're going to be working on this for the next three years as well. [00:44:49][53.3]

Zanele: [00:44:52] Yes, absolutely. And I am with you. [00:44:54][2.3]

Zanele: [00:44:55] That's one thing I am excited to see is that how do we expose ourselves, but also how do we immerse ourselves in diverse communities in a real way? I think that there is a lot of and I'm not sure if I've talked to you about this before, but, you know, no one wants performative Alisher. You know, no one wants to see a company act like they care, but they don't really care or place themselves in an area that if you look at the values that they have as an organization, don't align, nor do they match up. And so we call that performative aleisha, just people's ability to act like they care about something. But everything else we do doesn't match up. [00:45:35][40.0]

Zanele: [00:45:35] And so I think for us, what we've done well is by having these real conversations internally to say where do we feel? Where do we align ourselves and what do we care about? How do we ensure that we are creating sustainable partnerships that matter to us and that we know can actually make a difference in the long run? And that's going to be, I think, for us, probably the most important step that we can take. [00:46:00][25.6]

Monte: [00:46:02] Couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more, and speaking frankly, as an employee of Expensify, seeing over the last few years that I've been with a company putting our money where our mouth is when it comes to a lot of these initiatives and these action items and really, really taking those steps to move toward that has been really refreshing. I've worked with a lot of tech companies in my time and seen a lot of the performative ally ship, as you mentioned, that a lot of you know, it's a cool sticker we got on our desk today because it look cool and we can do it in a social media campaign. But what are we actually doing to affect that? And on that note, obviously, we've had some very exceptional guests on this podcast, present company very much included. And we always like to know how we add Expensify. We internalize the motto, Live rich, have fun, save the world. And it's something we kind of want to proclaim to the world. So asking you, Zanele, how do you live Rich? How do you have fun and how do you foresee yourself saving the world? [00:46:53][51.2]

Zanele: [00:46:54] Oh, my gosh, it's such a good question. You know what, when I always think about leverage, I think about to live in limitless life without bounds. And for me, living rich is having the ability to not only serve, but to go. And for a woman like me that immigrated to the United States with my eyes wide open and really wanting to live the American dream. And for our listeners, I'm putting air quotes out there. I understand that definition is a.. Right. And so for me to live Rich is being able to wake up and know that there is there are no barriers or bounds in place for me to do the things that I care most about. And for me, it's giving back to my community is using every talent, every skill that I have to focus on that and not worry about putting food on my table. And I think what sometimes people might think leverage is like traveling the world, which, by the way, I love very much. But traveling the world, fancy clothes and fancy cars and living in a mansion is like, hey, if that's what you want, that you want. But where I'm from, there's a difference between working to live and living to work. And I came from Zimbabwe living in a beautiful estate with incredible grounds, banana trees, chicken coop hunting. You know, people just like all around us, like it was an incredible life to moving to New Hampshire and living in the projects in a two bedroom apartment with eight people on it. Wow. And watching my mom with a master's in business administration, a master's in education consulting for companies under the table, because they wouldn't they couldn't afford to give her a sponsorship, a visa, or they wouldn't. And then working for twelve dollars an hour as a nurse assistant in an assisted living home. Right. And we ate the same things over and over again. We would line up on Saturdays and go to the food bank and really back then was like a food truck, so to speak. And all of these different organizations are giving food from grocery, from grocery stores that are about to expire today. So we got to eat. And I used to call those the wealthy days because mom would be like, OK, to two cups of yogurt. You know, Christians eat everything, eat it all today. And as a kid, you don't think like, oh, we're poor. That's why she's asking us to eat this, because it's about to expire. You think, oh, my gosh, I'm ready to eat. You know, like, I really thought that we were well off. And on Saturdays we get to watch recess and all these ABC shows, which really, because they had bought out Disney had bought out ABC for all the Channel two shows or Disney shows are coming on Channel two. [00:49:48][173.1]

Zanele: [00:49:48] So I grew up really in the space of, like, no way what Living Rich looks like, but understanding what it can be when it's taken away from you and waking up every day. Now, I ask myself, how are you breaking down barriers to allow yourself to be in a position that you can give back with no regrets, without checking my bank account to see if I have enough money to help this person pay rent? Or do I have enough money to pay my mentees education right to pay her tuition for this quarter? So that's what it means to me, living without balance and giving me the ability to not only serve, but give back and then save the world. [00:50:33][44.6]

Zanele: [00:50:34] I have so many ideas for save the world, but I think you all have seen parts of that. I really do believe in creating platforms that amplify voices and amplify other people's stories. I think of my mom who had gone through everything she'd gone through, and then she passed away from heart failure. And it was because she didn't have health insurance and she didn't have access to medication for six months, you know, in her heart gave out. [00:51:03][28.8]

Zanele: [00:51:03] And I remember the first time I heard about this, I was working at Sesame Street and, um, I was just getting on the subway. And it was about I think ten years after my mom died, my family felt like I was an adult. I could handle that, like I could process that. [00:51:19][15.5]

Zanele: [00:51:20] I remember thinking, what if people knew my mom's story when she was suffering, that she was this incredible, savvy businesswoman and who was just looking for citizenship, you know, but would work countless hours to put food on her kids tables? What if everyone knew how fearless she was, how strong she was that had a weak heart since she was born? If people knew that, would it have been hard for us to rally around her and get her? The help that she needs would have been hard for a company that found the brilliance in her, the excellence in her to ask her to say, hey, you can come. So we'll give you will provide DVDs that will help your your your family with a down payment on a home. [00:52:00][40.7]

Zanele: [00:52:01] Like all of these things, I've always thought if her story was amplified, would it have saved her life? And and so for me, that's what saving the world personally means, is going out there every day and finding ways to build platforms that can amplify diverse voices so we can find a way to all save each other. [00:52:24][22.9]

Monte: [00:52:25] Beautifully stated. Inspirational eye opening, Zanele. Thank you so much for joining us here today. I'd love to do a part two. We can talk about that blueprint of saving the world. We can really get some action items going because I know you have one. I know you have one, and you've just laid it out. So thanks so much. We really appreciate the time. [00:52:41][15.5]

Zanele: [00:52:41] Thank you for having me. Thank you, David. Thank you. [00:52:44][2.4]

Monte: [00:52:44] It's always a pleasure, talk soon, bye bye. [00:52:44][0.0]

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